Ep. 20: With Pat Flynn of SPI Media

Pat Flynn is a father, husband, and entrepreneur who lives and works in San Diego, CA. He owns several successful online businesses and is a professional blogger, keynote speaker, Wall Street Journal bestselling author, and host of the Smart Passive Income and AskPat podcasts, which have earned a combined total of over 60 million downloads, multiple awards, and features in publications such as The New York Times and Forbes. He is also an advisor to ConvertKit, LeadPages, and other companies in the digital marketing arena.

Where to find Pat

• Website: smartpassiveincome.com
• Pat’s Site: patflynn.com
• Courses: Smart Passive Income Courses
• Instagram: @patflynn
• Twitter: @patflynn

Read the full transcript below.

Pat Flynn (00:00):
People want to learn from people who are just like them, and when you show up, you don’t have to be the expert. You just have to know a little bit more than somebody else and likely you are better off to teach that person because they’re going to relate more to you than somebody who has that multiple PhD sort of status in that space. So hopefully that gives you some inspiration if you’ve been waiting to start because you don’t think you’re good enough, you absolutely are.

Melissa Guller (00:25):
Although Pat Flynn has now created a massive community of online business owners, his own entrepreneur story started when he got laid off from his dream job as an architect and in this episode, not only will we learn how Pat built and evolved his business, SPI Media over the last 12 years, but he’ll also share advice on how you can benefit from his experience. In fact, Pat shares why he held back on publishing his first online course for four years. Even hope people were asking him for courses he shares marketing strategies you can use no matter how early on you are in your online business. That will build trust and address objections with your audience to play the long game and create sustainable growth. But more than anything we talk about the value of serving, not just selling and how you can choose a truly amazing online business idea that makes a difference.

Announcer (01:27):
Welcome to Everything is Teachable, the podcast that takes you behind the scenes to learn how everyday creators have transformed their skills and passions into online courses and businesses. To introduce this week’s episode, here’s your host, Melissa Guller.

Melissa Guller (01:46):
Hey everyone. I’m Melissa from Team Teachable and today I’m excited to be here with Pat Flynn from SPI Media. Pat is a father, husband and entrepreneur who lives and works in San Diego, California. He owns several successful online businesses and as a professional blogger, keynote speaker, wall street journal bestselling author and host of the Smart Passive Income and Ask Pat podcasts, which I’ve earned a combined total of over 60 million downloads, multiple awards and features in publications such as the New York times and Forbes. He is also an advisor to convert kit, lead pages and other companies in the digital marketing arena. Well. Pat, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me here. I’m so excited to learn more about you because like many of our listeners, I wonder if people are a little bit familiar with your story, but I’m hoping we can all still learn something new today. So maybe for listeners who don’t know as much about you, can you share a little bit more about your founding story and how Smart Passive Income came to be?

Pat Flynn (02:54):
Sure. And my founding story really starts after I lost my dream job. I thought I going to be an architect for the rest of my life. After graduating from architecture school, I got this really amazing job in the Bay area, then moved to Southern California to continue that work and it was everything that I could ever dreamed of until June 17th, 2008 I got called into my boss’s office and he told me I was going to be let go and that was very unfortunate because I didn’t have a plan B. I didn’t think I needed one because I did everything I was supposed to from high school and getting good grades to doing more than I was asked of at work. And yet I still got let go. And I actually went through a couple weeks of depression. And just feeling really sad about that and not really feeling energized at all.

Pat Flynn (03:33):
And it wasn’t until I finally figured out, well, okay, there’s things that are happening right now. And back then it was the recession. Like there are things I can’t control and that’s all I’m thinking about. But then there are things that I can control and I should probably be thinking about those. And so when I finally started to realize that, well, maybe there’s an opportunity here, well what are my options? And one of the options was to potentially start a business of my own. But of course that sounds great and it sounds nice, but how do you go about doing that? Where do you start? Well, I got connected with these guys, Jeremy and Jason, who hosted a podcast called internet business mastery, which is where I found them. And they were just sharing a ton of inspirational stories on their podcast, much like you guys are about people who were doing it, who are, who are making a living online and I, it was just so inspiring to me.

Pat Flynn (04:16):
So that was sort of step one. But then on a particular day, I heard this episode from a guy named Cornelius Fitchner who was a guest on their show and he was teaching how he was making six figures a year helping people pass the project management exam. The PM examined. I had no idea what that was, but I was very familiar with an exam in the architecture space that I thought that maybe I could turn it into a business just like Cornelius did. So long story short, I turned all this information I learned about this exam and my experience with it, just having previously passed it within the past year, I put that on a website. I started to get really active on forums. It wasn’t like I put the website up and everything started to change right away. It took a lot of work, like 1216 hour days, pouring my heart into this website, trying to help people pass this exam, getting involved in forums, getting people to start to actually see that I was quite knowledgeable in this topic even though honestly I barely passed the exam and I tell people this because it’s not like I was a fake, although I was dealing with a lot of imposter syndrome at the time, but people started to see me as the expert.

Pat Flynn (05:15):
It was their choice to feel that way. But it was because I was showing up. It was because I was providing this information and literally active in these common areas in these forums to help people out. And there came a point where a number of people who were in the internet business world were saying, Pat, you’ve got this audience now. People know you as the expert. You gotta, you gotta come up with something to sell. And I was like, okay, I don’t even know what. And they’re like, you should probably create a study guide. And I was really worried about that because a lot of people also had their own study guides about this exam. And I was like, I don’t, I don’t even think I’m qualified to do this, but number one, what have I got to lose? And number two, I knew I could help people.

Pat Flynn (05:48):
And so within a month and a half I created this PDF guide to help people pass this exam. I sold it on the website and I remember the first day I think I made 80 bucks and it was the most beautiful thing that ever happened. Like I could not believe it. I even thought that like this, I was dreaming or like the FBI was going to show up cause I was doing something illegal. It just didn’t feel right to me cause I was so used to working so hard working X hours and getting paid X hours. Now mind you, I put hundreds of hours into this and made only 80 bucks, but that 80 bucks started this whole chain of events, which led to an $8,000 a month, that first month and then a $20,000 a month a couple months later. And that was my first foray into building a business. It was then that I discovered that there were a lot of people who wanted to learn how I did what I did.

Pat Flynn (06:29):
So I built the website, Smart Passive Income.com to help teach people how I did what I did and share people every bit of it from what I did right, what I wish I had done. Instead, the lessons learned, my income, how much I was making, how many sales I was making, how much I was spending, because I had no idea this world existed. And it wasn’t until I finally almost got pushed into it. Having, after getting laid off that I wanted to share it and help spread that message in the world. And since then that that was back in late 2008 now, 12 years later, I have this giant platform at Smart Passive Income with bestselling books, keynote speak around the world, multiple online courses. Now we for generating over seven figures a year and that education business and the beauty of this is it’s still built in a way with, you know, a lot of tools and automation in mind to not have so that it’s no longer a trade X hours for for X dollars.

Pat Flynn (07:20):
It’s invest X amount of time to get potentially loads of, of, of additional payback down the road. And it always comes from a place of service. And that’s sort of anybody who knows me knows I, it always starts with service. Your earnings are a byproduct of how well you serve your audience. And so here we are today and you know, I feel so blessed and feel grateful for the position that I’m at, especially because a lot of my team or, or tools handle a lot of the business for me. And so I can spend some time with the kids too. So I have a seven year old and a 10 year old and I’m home with them every day. And it just, I feel so blessed and I want to help share that with the world because I think a lot of people could potentially move into a similar sort of set up for themselves too. And the online space.

Melissa Guller (08:00):
Absolutely. And I love what you said near the beginning where you barely passed this test, but at the same time you still had more knowledge than somebody else. And I think we underestimate our own knowledge because a lot of things come maybe so easily to us or we see that there are big giants in our space and we think, Oh well they’ve got it. Who am I to do this or to teach that? But there really is a lot of space for everyone. So maybe for anybody listening, if they have that thought like, Oh, somebody’s already doing it. Do you have any advice about what could they do to stand out if there’s a seemingly crowded space or topic? Because certainly what you talk about, there’s plenty of people in online business now too.

Pat Flynn (08:38):
Sure. Well, three things. Number one, anybody can inspire anybody. You don’t need qualification to inspire people. So that’s number one. There’s a lot of people out there with great content who just lack that motivation or inspiration, who people won’t learn from any way, even though they had that great information. So that’s number one. Number two, you a hundred percent unique. You are 100% original. Nobody’s like you. Nobody has the exact same experience as you, wisdom, knowledge, et cetera. And so you’re viable, attract your tribe. So when you put yourself out there, you’re going to attract the people that like you for you, even though there might be somebody else who teaches something similar, somebody might want to learn from somebody just like you instead, for whatever reason, whatever they connect with. And that’s why it’s important to show up and talk about things that people can connect with.

Pat Flynn (09:18):
And the more that you dive into exactly what their problems are, their objections are, their pains, their needs, their wants, the more likely they are to come to you for help. And I talk a lot about that in my book. Super fans, which is all about cultivating an amazing and loyal tribe. And then thirdly, and here’s the big thing, people want to learn from people who are just a few steps ahead of them because it’s more obtainable. Those people are more relatable. And to give you a clear example, you know I have a podcast, the Smart Passive Income podcast. We just pass like 60 million downloads, which is just bonkers. It is crazy, and I teach a lot of people how to podcast. That’s what a lot of my online courses are about. But I have interviewed people like Gary Vaynerchuk, Tim Ferris, Donald Miller, like really big sort of A-listers in the niche that I’m in, in the space that I’m in.

Pat Flynn (10:02):
Yet my most popular interviews are with people that nobody’s ever heard of before. For example, episode 122 with Shane and Jocelyn Sams. Likely, if you’re listening to this, you have no idea who those people are and nobody does until you hear the episode and you’re like, Oh my gosh, these teachers from Kentucky who heard the Smart Passive Income podcast one day, literally mid mowing their lawn stopped. What they were doing to start building their online business and are now making seven figures and they’re just too humble. Teachers from Kentucky who now teach other things like their first businesses were teaching high school football coaches, defensive plays, and Jocelyn was teaching librarians how to manage their library better in schools. And like they built a successful business doing that. That episode has more downloads than the episodes of Gary Vaynerchuk and Tim Ferriss combined. Wow. And that just shows you that people want to learn from people who are just like them.

Pat Flynn (10:55):
And when you show up, you don’t have to be the expert, you just have to know a little bit more than somebody else and likely you are better off to teach that person because they’re going to relate more to you than somebody who has that multiple PhD sort of status in that space. So hopefully that gives you some inspiration if you’ve been waiting to start because you don’t think you’re good enough. You absolutely are. And if you just happen to have just learned something like how much better of a teacher are you than somebody who had learned that thing, you know, 40 years ago, you’re probably more relevant than that person who’s more of an expert in the sort of educational sense of things and qualifications, credentials, those things don’t matter as long as you number one come from a place of service and number two you can provide value and help people through those steps. Well you’ve got it so well said and I’ll make sure we include a link to episode one 22 in the show notes for this podcast so people can listen to those stories. And what I loved is that those topics, the library organization, that’s

Melissa Guller (11:54):
not something I would have even thought to make an online course about, but I think it really does show that there is something for everyone and somebody is craving the knowledge that you have. And in particular when we’re talking about your business, you had your Smart Passive Income podcast and I know in your early days you were sharing affiliate products and you had some other strategies going on. So for our audience of aspiring online course creators, what was the tipping point for you when you thought, you know, I think it’s time for me to make an online course of my own.

Pat Flynn (12:25):
Yeah, it’s interesting cause I had been asked by my audience to create online courses for so long, literally for four or five years before I finally created one. And I always held back and there were a number of reasons why I held back from creating a course. Number one, I was making great money through affiliate marketing. Like you had just said, meaning I was recommending other products, other companies, other people’s stuff in exchange for a commission and in was making, you know, over six figures a month doing so. So I always felt like, well if I added online courses on top of that, I’m worried that my audience is going to feel like I’m just kind of trying to squeeze every dollar out of them and I don’t want them to feel like that. The other thing that was holding me back was, well there are other people out there who are creating those courses already about the things that I would probably want to create a course about.

Pat Flynn (13:11):
So let me just be an affiliate for them instead. It’s much easier cause I can just send people off to them. But the problem with that is, well when you are an affiliate for somebody, well yeah you might be the expert curator in a sense. And that’s the big sort of task as a affiliate marketer is you need to be the expert curator. Well I’m sending people off to somebody else and then I might never see them again. They’re not in my brand anymore and I have to hopefully rely on that other company to take care of them. And there’s also a lot of responsibility that comes with affiliate marketing. Should you recommend something and they don’t have a good experience? Sure they might be upset at that product or that company, but who are they going to be more upset at? Well, probably you for recommending something that didn’t work out, so you lose a lot of control in a customer’s experience by giving that customer away to somebody else.

Pat Flynn (13:54):
So it wasn’t until a good friend of mine, Derek Halpern from social triggers.com a very loud new Yorker who just tells it like it is all the time. He told it to me, he said, Pat, you were doing your audience a disservice right now. And I said, what are you talking about? Please tell me what you mean. He said, well, you can see it. People want a online course from you. They want to learn podcasting from you. They want to learn how to start a business from you, from you being the keyword. They don’t want to learn it from anybody else and people don’t have the opportunity to do that. If you just sit here and keep wondering if people are going to get it or wondering if it’s good enough or sending people off elsewhere. And I knew he was right but it took somebody else on the outside to tell me and tell me like it is and show me, cause it’s very hard to read the label when you are inside the bottle.

Pat Flynn (14:39):
And I had him on the outside telling me what the label was saying. So eventually I got comfortable with the idea of creating a course, but it was still a little bit of a struggle because okay well what do I create to create a course about, there’s so many options. So I did a little micro experiment. My first online course was actually a free course because I wanted to learn about different platforms and what would work best. And obviously I landed on Teachable, the best by far and Encore and I got to build a great relationship together. And just the whole team at Teachable just seems to actually care about not just my success as a creator, but the success of my students as well, which is really important to me, but after I wrote a book called will it fly, I created a companion course to go along with that.

Pat Flynn (15:18):
This was a free course that would help drive emails into my list from the book. I was looking for creative way to build my list from a book, and this works really, really well. In fact, now years later, five years later, I looked at the data that lead magnet, which is essentially just a Teachable course that I created, a companion course where every lesson is essentially the same as every chapter just to be supplemental. It doesn’t stand on its own, but it’s just supplemental that converts 53% of my book readers into my email list, which is unheard of. Amazon unfortunately doesn’t give us access to the list of readers that we have, so you have to work a little bit harder as a, as a, as a author to collect those email addresses. So essentially one out of every two people who read my book, I have their email address.

Pat Flynn (16:02):
And that’s so huge because now I know exactly where they’re at and with my book will it fly? Those are for people who want to start a business from scratch, how to make sure they don’t waste their time and money. So that gave me the familiar familiarly [inaudible], which is a word I can’t say of what’s it like to create an online course and it was so easy drag and drop easy literally. So that’s what inspired me to then create this sort of followup course, the paid premium course to will it fly, which is called smart from scratch. And in fact it was a lot of my readers from will it fly who got all the information was like, okay, show me how to do this. Like walk me through it step by step, which is of course the perfect thing that of course can do.

Pat Flynn (16:36):
So I built smart from scratch. We sold it initially as a beta program for one 47 and we had over a hundred students go in like in our first go and it was just mind blowing and who did I sell to? The people who read my who read will it fly, who got all that content and I had their email address. So it was very simple for me to go, okay, you have your free Teachable course now. Well with just a couple clicks really, you already have your username and login in here, why don’t you come and join smart from scratch? If you really want the [inaudible] the the dirty details on how to get started for me to hold you accountable I off, I offer office hours on top of that too. So that was my first foray into courses and honestly I’ve been a little obsessed with it ever since and I think I have like six courses now and many more planned. We’ve made about $3 million in earnings just from online courses alone and it’s now become a major sort of percentage of our overall business model.

Melissa Guller (17:24):
I love hearing that and I want to point out too, the approach you took, whether or not somebody starts with an ebook, but just having that free course where you can go above and beyond deliver value, give those early students a free outcome that builds so much trust and Goodwill that you’re really invested in their success and that you know what you’re talking about. And I love thinking about how you are probably bringing people slowly along that journey with you to the point where they would actually purchase the full

Pat Flynn (17:49):
course. So for anyone listening, I think starting with a free course like that is a really great idea. Yeah. You know, I play the long game. I like to offer things for free first and to offer quick wins. That’s a big strategy of mine. How can I, from the moment a person finds me for the first time, how might that, how might I offer them a quick win such that they would want to continue to come back to get rewarded? And those little tiny yeses turned into bigger yeses. Turn into bigger yeses. This is the yes ladder in marketing. Where if we can get person to say yes, and we do that by just having conversations with them, talking to them, offering something for free. Yes, yes, yes. And then all of a sudden now they’re in your premium course for super fans of yours and now they’re spreading the message for you without you even asking.

Pat Flynn (18:29):
It’s, it’s a beautiful thing. And to maybe give us an example, what are the yeses that people say to go from? Will it fly to being a student of yours in a paid course? So big thing in marketing is you want to make sure that people understand that you are where they’re at and you understand what they’re going through. So I know for example, that people want to start a business, but it’s important to also understand the objections that they have and then address them head on. So for example, my subtitle for my book, will it fly is how to start your next business without wasting your time and money. And how did I know that time and money were the big things? Well, I ran a survey with my audience and I had conversations. And so literally every word of that tagline doesn’t come from me and it’s just not made up.

Pat Flynn (19:08):
It comes from my audience because it’s Jay Abraham says, if you can describe the problem better than your target customer, they will automatically assume you have the solution. It’s like when you get that person going, Oh yeah, that’s me. That’s like the first, yes. O R and when it comes to sales pages, if you have a core surgery, you’re selling anything that’s the, that’s the job of the first part of the sales page. Can it connect with that person? Can that person go, Oh yeah, I fit into this and if not good, they don’t need to be there and read it any more. This course is not for them, but if they are, yes. Okay. Now they’re continuing to read. Are you somebody who struggles with X, Y, Z? Are you looking for a solution to help you overcome this? Yes. Okay. Yes. Yes. So those are the sort of first few yeses and with will it fly.

Pat Flynn (19:50):
It was like, are you starting business? Yes. Are you worried about wasting time and money? Yes. Okay. We’ll open this book and read through, and then I share some examples of people who also felt similarly to what I know my reader was feeling. A little bit of a of a imposter syndrome, a little bit of worry whether or not they’re the expert or not. A lot of the stuff we thought we talked about here in this podcast already, right? Like likely for those of you listening, you’ve said yes a couple of times. So the things that I’ve been talking about are at least not at along with our physically or at least mentally to just kind of confirm. And there’s a reason why you’re still listening to this episode. I mean, these are the practices of just understanding your audience, what it is that they’re going through so that they’ll want to continue to listen and hopefully you can offer them a solution in a way on the other side of all that.

Pat Flynn (20:33):
And then with Willow fly, you know, yes, you want more supplemental information, great. Go check out this companion course. Awesome. Are you getting some small wins? Are you getting some results here? Yes, you’ve, you’ve proven your idea. You’ve, you want to get to your first customer now. Okay, awesome. Come take my premium course smart from scratch so we can really hone in on the foundations here and hopefully get you that first customer of yours if that’s something you’re interested in doing, which now they are more likely to because I’ve spoken their language to the entire way and I’ve given them something to be proud of and excited about already. Well, let’s continue this journey and then after they start their business, are you looking for some way to start a website? Okay, great. You can check out my other free course. Build your own brand, which is a free course that I teach people how to come up with a brand name and also build a website and that’s another sort of free lead magnet that I then offered to go.

Pat Flynn (21:18):
Okay, well you’ve got your got your website now. Would you like to build your audience? Yes. Okay, well here’s my premium course power up podcasting to help you build that audience to help you connect with them and build relationships with them so you can turn that into a business. Awesome. Or might UV instead excited about building your email list, which is an important part of building your business. Well, yes. Okay, well check out my premium course email marketing magic, or are you interested in potentially making money from this now? Yes. Okay. Well you should check out my course. One, two, three affiliate marketing so I could teach you the easiest way to get started now without having to build your own products. So you see how I’m just like taking people along the journey and now it’s become sort of a choose your own adventure and we have courses free and premium to sort of help them along.

Melissa Guller (21:59):
I hope people have been taking notes. I feel like this is just a marketing master class right here. And speaking of objections, I have to imagine that some of our listeners right now are objecting and thinking, Whoa, Whoa, but Pat, you’ve got a massive audience. I don’t have any such thing. So maybe if we can think about all of our listeners in those very early stages of their online business with no audience yet, what are some of those very first steps that you think that they should take to start moving that idea forward?

Pat Flynn (22:27):
Okay, so here’s what I would do. I would try to understand as much as about, uh, this idea as possible before you do anything like don’t, don’t start creating your course yet. You need to know who it is that you’re serving and what’s the ultimate transformation that you will be offering in this course. And that’s the really important thing, right? You don’t want just like a blogging course cause it’s like, okay, well that’s what it is, but what does this do for me versus how to grow an email list to 1000 email subscribers in 30 days. Now we’re talking, if people want that, awesome, they know exactly what they’re going to get. A blogging course is more general and this is the big mistake that I see a lot of people make their courses just about the topic, but it needs to be about the transformation.

Pat Flynn (23:07):
What is the ultimate outcome? What is, what are they going to have on the other side of taking this course? So when you can understand that, then I would go into an outlining process which to me in, so I also have a number of businesses elsewhere too. I have a physical product business, a invention that was created last year called a switch pod and we were using the same sort of tactics here, but you know in digital, in the physical space, what you do before you create a product is you prove the idea by first talking about it before you get a green light and then you make a prototype. The prototype is like this crude version of the thing that you’re going to create and for us it was a tripod. We literally created it out of like cardboard and then plastic and we got three D printed and we just kept forward.

Pat Flynn (23:46):
Your version, the digital version of a prototype is going to be your outline. So you want to create your outline. How would you create your outline? I would recommend doing what your brain does best. Coming up with a whole load of ideas. Our brain, however, doesn’t organize our ideas very well and it doesn’t filter them or brains do a terrible job of coming up with ideas in the right order. So that’s what w what we need. We need the ideas and then we need to put them in the right order. So how might we do that? I recommend using this really amazing tool. It’s available everywhere. It’s called a post it note and you want to get a pack of post notes, one idea per post note, and literally just go through a brainstorming session. No editing. You aren’t allowed to throw away any of those ideas.

Pat Flynn (24:26):
Just just, just like throw it up on your table, all the ideas about what would help support this transformation, right? You can’t come up with these ideas unless you have that transformation. So everything and everything that would matter to a customer or students related to getting to that transformation, good and bad ideas. Lay them all out on the table. And then what happens is you can see the ideas that just don’t fit. Like now that you have it all out there, you can deal with it and organize it. Now we’re going to get into our editing brain, which is different than our creative sort of just make things up brain. So now we can throw away posted notes, or by the way, recycle posted us. Don’t, don’t just throw them away. We can cluster the ones that make sense to cluster together like, wow, all these are about this.

Pat Flynn (25:02):
And Oh, all those are about that. So let’s, let’s move the posted notes around. That’s what I love about this exercise. You can move them around and create clusters and now you have different pods. Each of these pods essentially become a module of your course. Now within each of those pods or each of those modules, take those poster notes and start to see if you could put them in an order of operations for what people should get into first related to that. And there might be some gaps where you can put more posted notes in. Some might be irrelevant. Now you can take them away. And ultimately what ends up happening is now just through this brainstorming exercise, you have your course outline right in front of you. So now you create the modules and lessons in your course and now it becomes very easy to produce.

Pat Flynn (25:40):
But we’re not producing yet, but we will eventually. But when you do eventually get to the point at which you would produce, here’s how you do it. You take a post a note for that lesson, you put it in front of your computer and you just make that lesson. Now it’s so much easier to focus because you’re focusing on one post it note as a time at a time. So this is my secret. This is how we’ve been able to produce several courses. I can create a course in about two weeks now, including filming it because we use this strategy and it works really, really well. That’s much helpful framework. I think it’s so simple, like I love that you’re not saying let’s do this complicated thing. You’re saying, take something that you already have in your desk and just get a pencil and get to work.

Pat Flynn (26:13):
Yes, absolutely. And if you don’t have posted notes, you can use anything obviously. But I love the posted notes for the ability to move it around and then like take it and then just focus on that one post note when creating. Now like I said, you don’t want to create right away, we need to take this prototype of ours, this outline that becomes the thing we use to share to people to go, is this something that would be helpful to you? So you number one need to find people who have that pain or problem. And there’s many different places you might have connections with people in real life. You might have connections online in groups or informs where maybe you’ve built an audience already or you can get in front of an audience that has that. And essentially what you want people to do is to raise their hand if they have that problem.

Pat Flynn (26:49):
Before you even mentioned the prototype, before you even mentioned this course, you would just want to know who has that issue. So let’s say for example, I’m talking about podcasting and I’m in a forum. I might just go, Hey, who here is considered starting a podcast and why might you want to start one? And I can just start to collect a whole bunch of answers from people and then I would reach out to them in a direct message and that’s where I would engage in conversation. Again, not to sell them anything. The moment you start saying that you’re selling something is the moment that they think that you’re in this for anything else other than serving them. So what you can do is in a conversation like that, even with one person, you can just get to the point where you can go, okay, might you be interested in seeing this thing I’m trying to come up with?

Pat Flynn (27:27):
I know that you’re interested in starting a podcast, I’m not selling this to you, but this is what I came up with and I just wanted to get your gut reaction to see if this was something that would actually help you or, or something that you just wouldn’t even want to participate in. And that way you can get just one person to say yes. And that’s, that’s the whole point here. A lot of us think that when we, when we create something we need like a hundred people or a thousand people where we want to make $1 million on our first launch. No, the whole point here, just to fast forward a bit is we want to get to the point where we can get one student one result and I would even help them through that process in a very manual way. At first, let’s not worry about getting loads of customers.

Pat Flynn (28:02):
Let’s let’s worry about getting one student one result. Can my outline and methodology here help one person, let me do it for somebody for free just to see if this works, to see if even number one, I want to do this. Number two, is it possible for me to do this and to get all the kinks out? Number three, to get a person a result so I can get a testimonial and have a real life case study, a real life case study. Now that gives me, and this is the biggest thing that getting one student one result offers you, is it gives you the confidence that what it is that you’re creating orcs, and I’ll tell you this is the big mistake that a lot of, especially online course creators have, you create the course and you’re not sure if it’s actually helpful. And that’s crazy.

Pat Flynn (28:44):
I think that you can create the course and maybe do a beta launch or even offer it or do the manual work to help somebody get that result so that you have not just that case study and testimonial, but you have the confidence now that what it is that you’re selling actually works. Because when you know, when you are confident that what it is that’s in your course is actually going to help people. It changes everything. Because on the flip side, if you aren’t confident and you send messages, like if you’re not confident in your course, why would a person who you’re selling to be confident in what it is you’re selling, either they’re not going to be, people can read through that. But the moment you unlock that confidence because you’ve given one person one result, it literally changes everything. Your tone, how well you sell this.

Pat Flynn (29:27):
And I know another thing that a lot of you might be thinking as well, like I have a hard time selling things. I don’t want to be a sell out. I don’t want to, you know, ask for money. But here’s the big truth that you can sell and serve at the same time. And in many cases you have to sell to serve, you have to have people invest in themselves to have skin in the game to then do the work. And I promise you if you get one person one result, it literally changes everything. Hopefully that’s sort of a finish line for you in the first leg of this race is to just get to that one result.

Melissa Guller (29:56):
I think that’s so refreshing to hear that maybe our listeners can only focus on that one person because I think the alternative contend to sound very overwhelming. Like, Oh, do I need to be on every social media? Should I start a tick? Tock noticed you’re on tech talks, so clearly you’re in on the game. I don’t have any dance moves yet. I’m going to work on it, but I have no idea what to do there, but I don’t think anyone does though. You know, we’re all just pretending. Yeah, but there’s so much out there that I think it’s easy to get distracted by the newest thing, the new tick-tock, whatever comes next that we may lose sight of the fact that what’s most powerful and the best way for us to serve is to find one person who we can really make a difference for.

Melissa Guller (30:33):
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Well now that we’re on the topic of tech talk and other things, I am actually curious to get your advice on something because a lot of our creators do move from having their first one person with one result into of course wanting to find more students and at some point other marketing channels are going to come into play. And I know that as your business has evolved, podcasting, another podcast Ask Pat 2.0 you’ve got YouTube, you’ve got tick-tock, you’ve got it all going on. And so people who are maybe considering you know what’s right for me. Do you have any advice about which channels to choose or how they are different from each other?

Pat Flynn (31:14):
I’m going to give you the right answer and then I’m going to give you my answer. Not that my answer is wrong, but just I do have a preference for where one might go to build an audience faster and, and, and, and have a deeper relationship and likely you can all guess what that is, but stick around to see if you can actually guess it right. But, but the right answer here is to pick one platform, just one and own it and everything goes there. I think it’s very easy to just go [inaudible], well, I, I should be everywhere because Pat’s everywhere, or Chalene Johnson’s everywhere or whoever is everywhere right there on all those platforms, so I must be on those platforms too. The truth is, just to give you a little bit of a history lesson here, I started my blog in 2008 Smart Passive Income in 2009 is when I finally had the time after optimizing my blog to start YouTube and I started YouTube in a way where it was really just a repository for tutorials that I was doing.

Pat Flynn (32:11):
Then fast forward a year and about a quarter later I started my podcast and then fast forward a couple of years after that, I finally started speaking on stages. A couple of years after that. That’s when I started writing books and a couple of years after that, that’s when I started to create online courses. So mind you, I’ve been doing this for 12 years and none, nothing was done concurrently with something else. It was always one platform at a time, one content platform at a time when social media platform at a time, and the reason that’s so key is because let’s say you were trying to do two at a time or four at a time or 10 at a time, like we often see, well your energy is going to be divided potentially equally across all those different platforms or even not equally in which case you know that some, some of those are not going to go well, but even if you’re just dividing evenly between two things, then each of those two things never get to the point where you could sort of master and optimize them and I think that you have a much better way of going by just picking one and mastering that.

Pat Flynn (33:07):
And truth is many people do this when I tell them to do it and they do it and they just stay with that because that’s, that’s their home. Their home is Instagram, their home is podcasting, their home is whichever one is, uh, you know, Facebook and they just lean into that and all things become that. And instead of just kind of kind of going into each of them in a mediocre way, you master it and you learn everything you can about it so that you can show up in front of more people on that platform. Yes. Hypothetical you would be quote unquote leaving people behind who are only on Instagram or who only watch YouTube videos. But the truth is you’re only going to show up halfway for them if you divide half your energy across all these different platforms or two platforms because 100% but the point being you need to pick one and which one do you pick?

Pat Flynn (33:51):
Well, you pick the one that number one, you know your audience exists there. So there are likely people who are showing up on those platforms already who are cultivating these audience who are building these, these sort of groups or, or, or has a following already. And that’s not a bad thing. Yes, they got in before you did. But this is an advantage for you to come and now because you can come in with a bird’s eye perspective to see, well what’s missing? What are, what are they doing wrong? What do people like, how can I make mine better? How could I potentially collaborate with them? Because when you get in front of an audience that already exists, I mean you’re getting endorsed by person who people trust already. It just, it just completely catapults what where you’re at at that point and so like I said, going with one at a time makes makes the most sense in my opinion and I would combine will where your people are at versus which one gets you excited.

Pat Flynn (34:38):
Are you a writer? If you are a writer, then let’s not force it. Let’s not force you to because you’re not a YouTube video person. If you are just a wacky goofball and you know that you could show up on video and it’s not a struggle for you, then then be a wacky goofball on YouTube and people would love that. Or if you’d much rather have conversations with people like how we are right now, then start a podcast or as far as social media channels. Well pick the one that you don’t mind opening up every day and being involved in conversations there. And I think that’s the key. And so for me, my, my answer would be if you had to choose one of them, for me, it’s choose one content platform, choose one social platform. That’s like, again, I just try to make things simple at the start. One customer, one result, one social media platform, one course to start with, one content platform content, mixing up a recipe of like a one plus one plus one equals massive thrive without feeling super overwhelmed. Exactly. So quarter cup of, you know, anyway, um, quarter cup of plus half a cup

Melissa Guller (35:38):
of podcast minus cataloging.

Pat Flynn (35:41):
Yeah, that’s good. And then one quarter cup of just email list. Right. So that’s that. That’s, I like that. So anyway, build your email list no matter where, no matter where you’re at, that’s sort of like a hand that holds it all. You can’t, not exactly, you’re exactly, you’re exactly right. But I would start a podcast and the reason why I’d start a podcast is twofold. Number one, there’s just way less podcast and anything else out there right now, there are less than at the time of this recording. 1 million podcasts out there, consider that versus 500 million active blogs and you know, millions more starting every single day, right? Maybe not millions but a lot. And then YouTube channels, there are like 30 million active YouTube channels that are publishing, you know, five days of content every hour. Like it’s just insane. Versus a podcast, which is still on the up and up.

Pat Flynn (36:23):
We’re still in the early days of podcasting. What else I love about podcasting is unlike blogging, and unlike YouTube, people are listening for much longer. The retention rate is insane. So a person might read a blog for five 10 minutes max, and they’re not even reading every word. They’re skipping around a YouTube video. And I know this cause I’ve been diving into YouTube too, to go live a lot lately. If you get a person to watch for more than five minutes in a regular video, that’s really good. Five minutes is good, but when it comes to podcasting, there are people listening to 30 minutes. I mean we’re 36 minutes into this right now and you’re still here listening. That’s a lot of people’s time and attention. It’s because of the passive nature of how we consume podcasts. We’re on the walks, we’re on the runs, the gym on travel or in the car commuting or what have you.

Pat Flynn (37:10):
This is the only content platform where you can get in front of people for that long so you can’t help but build a strong relationship. And so I would say that if you want to have sort of a a customer journey, I think it, it starts with the podcast that they find you on and social media, sort of those two things working together to then get onto your email list to then have a conversation or build a relationship with you in a way that you’re learning about what their exact challenges are in struggles. And then you offer a service either in the interim for free or some lead magnet or you just pop them into a course that you know is relevant to them in their situation.

Melissa Guller (37:42):
Makes so much sense. And before we do move forward, I have to ask a podcasting question cause I’ve got like the King of the podcast here with me. So I know if things have a lot, I have evolved a lot rather since you started in I think 2009 and things are continuing to shift, seems pretty quickly. So what are some of the trends that you’re noticing for this year in 2020 and kind of thinking forward about podcasting?

Pat Flynn (38:06):
So one trend I’m noticing is there’s a lot of celebrities starting podcasts now. And this is a great thing because a lot of people still don’t listen to podcasts. I mean it’s, it’s over 50% of the population. Now. If you were to ask me three years ago, it would be just 10% of the population’s growing really fast. But what I love about celebrities like Conan O’Brien, you know Dax Shepard and like everybody’s starting a podcast. People on average listen and subscribe to seven shows. Many people are subscribed to way more. So you’re not competing. You’re essentially complimenting a person’s playlist by showing up in the podcasting sphere. But these celebrities, what they do is they have just such big followings and they have big, big platforms and they have a lot of money to spend. They talk about their podcasts, they say, get on a podcast, get on Apple, find my show and what people discover podcasts for the first time, thanks to these celebrities, our shows benefit as a result too because people then discover this platform and go, Oh, well I’m also interested in creating online courses.

Pat Flynn (39:00):
So let me find the Teachable podcast. Oh a, I’m into blogging and entrepreneurship. Oh wow, this is Pat Flynn. Guy seems interesting. He’s got a lot of, you know, he’s ranking high or you know, a lot of people are saying good things in the reviews, so let me check them out. I remember when serial came out, I think 2014 or 2015 so it was like the first sort of mainstream podcast ever, and it was about this true crime thing and just this potentially wrong sentence and it was, it was really interesting and they even parodied it on SNL and it went bonkers. My numbers in my show went up as a result of that podcast getting popularized. So we’re starting to see just growth naturally and just because more people are coming into podcasting so that that’s, that’s one trend. The other trend I’m noticing is there’s a lot of people trying to discover how to also use YouTube and video alongside their podcast.

Pat Flynn (39:46):
So it was funny because back when I started podcasting, there was literally a thing called video podcasting, which was just a different section of iTunes. You could choose audio podcasts or you could use video podcasts. And I remember I experimented because I had this fairly large audience now. I was like, Hey guys, I’m starting a video podcast on iTunes. Here’s when it comes out, everybody go watch the first episode. I just want to see what happens. We had the number one video podcast in the world for two weeks and it didn’t even get 5% of the downloads at the audio show did. Nobody was watching video podcasts and so they, they killed that program. But now there’s this trend now with YouTube and a lot of people repurposing a lot of tools being more easily accessible. People are trying to discover how they can fill themselves while recording their podcast or turn their audio and turn it into something that could be put onto YouTube as well.

Pat Flynn (40:34):
Joe Rogan has popularized this as well with his show now he has celebrities on so it’s a little easier. People watch every minute of his show just because of who he is and who he has on the show. For us, sort of normal people becomes a little bit harder to keep people’s attention for two hours during a podcast recording, right, or 30 minutes or whatever length that your show is. So there’s a little bit more challenge related to that. Well, how might we get people to listen but also stay watching? Cause there’s some things that happen on YouTube where for example, if people come and listen to your long form show and they’re like, well there’s no reason for me to watch it. Let me just go get it on Apple. I’m going to leave right away. Well that signals to YouTube, well your channel is not doing so great because people are coming in, they’re leaving.

Pat Flynn (41:12):
Well you might have to be a little bit aware of where you put those audios or how, how you might sort of chop up your show in a way where you know maybe there’s segments instead that standalone that can then lead people into your podcast. So video is is video and podcasting working together as a really interesting trend. And then number three, there’s a lot of advertising dollars now being put into podcasting, a lot of money being spent in that space. I think a lot of companies are now realizing that podcast listeners are some of the most loyal customers that they could potentially ever have because they built this trust with this host for so long and they’re listening for so many minutes that even a smaller audience is worth getting in front of because of the strength of that relationship that the host has with their audience.

Pat Flynn (41:53):
So a lot of advertisers are now looking to podcasters and offering up, you know, quite a bit of cash for getting in front of their audience. But at the same time you have to also be aware that this is your show and you don’t want to just be one of those people who have ad who has ads for, you know, dog food when your podcast is about business, just to make money that Ken come across a little bit too money hungry and you always want to come from a place of service. So hopefully your advertisers can align with your listeners too.

Melissa Guller (42:18):
That makes a lot of sense. And something I’m noticing in you know, all three areas and even throughout our episode is that the metrics that I keep hearing you bring up are not things like how many followers or counts or how many this or that. It’s things like how long are they engaging or how are you building the relationship. And I think it’s really refreshing to focus on metrics. And I know you’ve often counted a thank you notes as a metric in your own business and I do want to talk a little bit about super fans because I think you have some really valuable advice in your book that goes beyond those maybe superficial follower types of metrics. So can you tell us a bit more about what inspired the book and what it means to be a super fan?

Pat Flynn (42:56):
Yeah, so going back to my architecture days, I started this website to help people pass this exam, the lead exam. And I remember one day I got this email from a woman who said, Oh my gosh Pat, thank you for helping me pass this exam. I’m a huge fan and I didn’t like that. Like, I’m a huge fan. I just helped you pass an exam like that. I that didn’t calculate for me, but then a couple months went by and I just started to notice that there were multiple customers coming in for my study guide from the same firm that she worked at. And I eventually found out that she had talked up my business so much to all of her coworkers that she convinced every single person in the office to go and support my business and get my guide. And I thought that was really cool.

Pat Flynn (43:38):
One person who I helped turn into 25 new customers. And imagine if those 25 customers then turned into, you know, let’s just get exponential there, right? It just can continue to grow. And so it just showed me that wow, one person can make a huge difference. What if instead of focusing on getting so many more people under my brand, maybe I focus on the experience at the [inaudible] few people that are at my brand have thus growing my business for me too, because a lot of us understand the funnel, right? A funnel. If you imagine a funnel shape at the top, the largest part you have your traffic, you have then some of that traffic turning into subscribers, some of those subscribers turning into sales page viewers and some of those sales page viewers turning into customers, right? And boom, like that’s our funnel. You pour water in at the top, gravity does the work, you build all your automations, things work and you make money and that’s cool and that’s trackable and that’s why that’s the sort of fun thing to do is create those systems and you could see ROI directly.

Pat Flynn (44:34):
You can see how much money you spend in ads and how much that could come back and it just is all about getting more traffic, more traffic, more traffic because the funnel, but the book flips the funnel upside down and if you flip this funnel upside down, you start at the bottom now and you want to make your, you want to make your way to the top and at the bottom of this pyramid, much like at the top of the funnel is your casual audience members. These are the people who you drive in because of ads, because of SEO, because of links on other websites and podcast guesting and whatever you [inaudible]. It’s just the biggest part of your audience. But we want to, we want to move them up the ladder up the pyramid to the next section, which is now an active audience member.

Pat Flynn (45:10):
Now they are actively following you. They know what you do if you come out with a course. Yeah, they might see if it might make sense for them and they might buy it, but, but it doesn’t end when they become a customer. It actually, it actually starts there and then they can move up to become a part of the community. And when they become a part of the community, some really amazing magic happens. They almost self identify as a fan of you and what you do. And they can find other people who, who they can just connect with because they’re a fan as well. And these communities want to come together and they can do so even without you asking them to do so much. Like how in Lego, right. Do you know what a funnel is? AFRL? I don’t, but I’m excited to learn.

Pat Flynn (45:44):
And the evil is an adult fan of Lego. If you look up a full on the internet and you even go to meetup.com there are thousands of meetups of angels all around the world that happen every single year. I thought you were gonna say it was your photo of, no, no, no. An aiful is a, is an adult fan of Lego and there are thousands of meetings happening every single month all around the world because these people who just understand that want to get together and hang out because that’s what we as humans do. And you can show up as a facilitator, somebody who creates these moments where your community can come together and that brings new community members in and they don’t come in cold anymore. They come in warm because it’s from somebody who is active in your audience and active in your community. And some of those community members then become super fans.

Pat Flynn (46:27):
So if I were to ask you, where do most of the repeat customers come from? Where does most of the engagement come from? Are they coming from the bottom of the pyramid with your casual audience or are they coming from the top where your super fans are? Well, they’re coming with where your super fans are in the community, right? So why is it that we’re so focused then on just growing this pyramid from just the foundations, the bottom, more traffic, more SEO, more of this, more that, well, let’s instead focus on what I talk about in the book, which is let’s build for the customer experience, the journey, the super fans who can then grow your business for you with their recommendations and me much stronger than you could ever do on your own. So the book takes you through a journey of, okay, how do we convert people from this casual audience member to an active audience member?

Pat Flynn (47:09):
How do we sort of create these moments of trigger for them to go, Oh, you’re my guy or you’re my gal. I need to follow you. We talked to actually a little bit about some of the things that I talk about in the book today, like small quick wins for example, is a great way to get people to go, Oh, I like this person, I’m going to keep coming back. I’m now an active audience member and looking forward to the next thing and then your community for you can get to the point where they even have a name. Like my, the name of my community is team Flynn because I’m the captain, but Hey, I’m going to pass you the ball. Sometimes you’re going to score, we’re all going to celebrate and win together and then you know the super fans who just kind of, they’re going to buy every product they’re going to like.

Pat Flynn (47:43):
I got it. Like when my last book came out, I remember somebody emailed me and said, Pat, I heard you have a book coming out. I don’t even know what it’s about. I just want to buy 25 copies and distribute them to my friends. For you or a person who, who hears that I’m coming out with a new course and they send me an email with their credit card number and I’m like, don’t do that ever. But also thank you, right? It’s like you can have these people just become such raving fans and they’re so helpful because also like imagine like a troll shows up in my business and they try to talk smack like I won’t even know they exist because my, my fans who are on the front line just kind of take care of them for me and, and I come in later and I’m like seeing these discussions and like people are defending you without you even asking.

Pat Flynn (48:19):
It’s so amazing. And this is what I call business insurance. This is something that is platform agnostic. Even if you’re social media accounts were to go away, even if your website were to, were where to get hacked and you were never able to get it back. Your super fans are going to create one for you, right? Or they’re going to show up wherever you show up next. And that’s why it’s so important. That’s, that’s business insurance cause we have no idea what’s going to happen in technology. We’ve seen social media platforms block the audience that that has said they want to hear from us before your super fans are gonna show up no matter what. So that’s why I think it’s important to build for super fans.

Melissa Guller (48:51):
Yeah, amazing advice. And I hope that people will check out the book. We’ll put a link in the show notes and even just that flipping of the pyramid instead of funneling people out, you’re building people up. I absolutely love. So I hope that people will check out the book. Now before we do wrap up, I’d love to hear more about what you’re excited about. So when you think about the next months or a year’s for a Smart Passive Income, like what’s up next for you?

Pat Flynn (49:14):
So what’s up next? We are looking forward to creating more courses, that’s for sure. We’ve had a lot of people ask for other additional type things like [inaudible] everything from book publishing to how to create online courses course to, uh, webinars. Uh, public speaking. We have a lot of of knowledge. Uh, not just from me but from a lot of my team members too, that we want to add to the mix to help people get results. So that’s really exciting. We’re also considering, you know, community a lot more in different ways. Could we, we currently have a Facebook group of like 48,000 people in sort of mini communities, sort of auxiliary communities around that, but it’s not the best in terms of management and we’re looking for new fun ways to bring the community together to help serve them, to create community led events, to have more people show up and serve and do training for free within that community. Just a lot of fun things related to that. And then finally, you know, I’m really excited about just writing more. Uh, I think, I think I definitely have another book in me and I’m looking forward to getting that out there. The books have been a really great way to not just offer value but also introduce new people to my work and my team and our brand and what we could do for them. And uh, yeah, just keeping on, keeping on.

Melissa Guller (50:19):
Well, I can’t wait to see what comes next. And I have to wrap by asking maybe a bit of a hardball question, but since you’re in this space, I imagine you’re getting all the time, way more than most of us. Are there questions that you wish that more interviewers would ask you?

Pat Flynn (50:34):
Ah, you know, I do them so much that I think every question in the book has been asked, but I, I think that, you know, I would prefer that podcasts tell me how I can specifically help individuals in their audience. And I think that that speaks to two things. Number one, maybe a podcast or who interviews me might have a specific name in mind and a real life person with real life struggles that I can just answer directly. Because when it’s in context like that with a real person, it becomes more memorable. It becomes more special, not just for that person, but to the listener on the other end who they kind of see a version of themselves in that. And so just having people who do interview step up to go, okay, well, you know, I want to tell you a little bit about, you know, Angela, she lives here.

Pat Flynn (51:13):
This is what her struggles are, this is what she’s trying to do. What advice would you give Angela during this time? And it just like is literally the same kinds of questions I get that I got asked. But with context, and I think when it comes to context and story, which is what a podcast is really meant for those two things combined, you can teach in a much better way when it has context in their story that people can relate to. So that’s just a little bit of just sort of general know. It’s not really a rant, but just like a, what would I wish, what I would see more of?

Melissa Guller (51:41):
Oh, I love it. That’s great advice. I think me as a podcast or I’m taking notes, but even anybody listening who has their own business or is trying to imagine who they’re serving, if they don’t already have that kind of a person in mind, then I think that’s a great exercise for them. And I’m sure this episode has given our online course creators so much to think about. Thank you so much for joining. Where can people connect with you or learn more?

Pat Flynn (52:03):
You can learn more at smartpassiveincome.com we have our entire library of courses paid and free there. And then also I do a lot of uh, personal blogging now@patflynn.com and also on my YouTube channel, youtube.com/patflynn across multiple channels. Again, remember not started all at the same time at Pat Flynn on most of those places. So smartpassiveincome.com or @patflynn.

Melissa Guller (52:25):
perfect. And before we wrap, do you have any final words of wisdom or inspiration for our listeners?

Pat Flynn (52:31):
Yeah, I mean, uh, I don’t know when you’re listening to this, but you know, right now at the moment we’re recording this, we’re in some pretty tough times in the world right now due to stuff that’s happening and going around, and I’m not gonna mention anything specific, but you know, there’s going to be times always where things seem tough. Things seem sort of down in the dumps. And I think that if you ever come across a moment like that, a great question to ask yourself is, okay, well there are things I can’t control here, but what does this now make possible? And I think at a moment like this, what we’re experiencing right now, there’s a lot of new opportunities that are in front of people’s eyes. And now that we all have a lot of time, I think people are holding onto those opportunities and actually using this opportunity to grow and learn and optimize and to, to into create. And this takes me back to when I got laid off in 2008. Right? I was struggling. And it wasn’t until I finally turn it into a opportunity that, uh, things started to finally happen. So even in the toughest times, what does this now make possible? Go from there. So well said,

Melissa Guller (53:24):
Pat, thank you so much for joining. It’s been an absolute pleasure having you here and I hope you don’t mind. I’m going to steal your tag line and say, “Team Flynn for the win.”

Melissa Guller (53:36):
Thank you all so much for joining us this week. You can learn more about Pat Smart Passive Income and Teachable in the show notes at teachable.com/eit20. Before you go, make sure you subscribe to our podcast so you can receive new episodes right when they’re released. You can either subscribe right in your favorite podcast app, or you can sign up for email alerts at teachable.com/podcast. And if you’re enjoying the show, I hope you’ll let us know! We love reading your reviews in Apple Podcasts, and if you have a minute to spare, we’d love to read yours too. On behalf of Team Teachable. We hope you enjoyed this episode about serving, overselling, and creating Superfans with Pat Flynn. We’ll see you in the next episode of Everything is Teachable.